There was an argument about it at the Biofuels mailing list discussion group. Superboost started it when he wrote:
"Well, seems like I am getting nothing out of this group, except how little you all care about the devastating future we are about to live through. The following are my reasons:

1) Diesel in any form is a high source of pollution.

2) Burning diesel is more inefficient than burning gasoline because: a) the higher compression ratio robs power b) more (a lot more) of the fuel's energy is wasted as heat, thus less energy is left to push piston.

3) Biodiesel production is about as bad as burning petrodiesel--fumes from the brew would replace the pollution cut back by burning biodiesel

4) No matter how bad you want it to stop, diesel will always destroy its engine faster than one running on gasoline

5) The increased volume of oil needed in the crankcase poses another environmental hazard.

6) The diesel engine is noisy as hell. And I thought this being the 21st century we could have quiet sources of energy.

Now, is there anyone here who would like to list advantages of the diesel? The first one would be what, that no spark is needed? Well, OK good, but a high-pressure pump is needed, plus a turbo to get the same power out of it as a gasoline engine with no turbo. Think about it...

PS. I apolagize if anyone is "offended" by this message, but these are the views of those of us who want to actually have a cleaner planet."

This annoyed Steve:
"All you have done is prove you know absolutely nothing about engines, fuels, or efficiency. Your arguments are so wrong, that I don't know where to begin refuting them, so I'll pass. Please go away."

From Bryan:
"I'll give you a hint. Always start at the beginning no matter how daunting the task. <g>"

Bryan took his own advice:
">Well, seems like I am getting nothing out of this group, except how little you all care about the devastating future we are about to live through. The following are my reasons:

Now I can't help but think you missed something somewhere. See this is the biofuel egroup. Here we talk about the fuels we have to have today to get our rig down the road and how best to make those fuels be kinder to the planet. It is not the anti-fuel egroup or the fly for free on magnets group. Everyone here recognizes that in our current society we depend on fuels to get around.

>1) Diesel in any form is a high source of pollution.

Some higher then others.

>2) Burning diesel is more inefficient than burning gasoline because: a) the higher compression ratio robs power b) more (a lot more) of the fuel's energy is wasted as heat, thus less energy is left to push piston.

That's why I get double the mileage out of a 6.5? My Dad has a Ford 460 in his '79 Van that gets him 10 miles to the gallon (when he is lucky) I get 20 MPG on a fair day, 23 on a good day and about 18/19 on a bad day. I also have just as much power as he does..

>3) Biodiesel production is about as bad as burning petrodiesel--fumes from the brew would replace the pollution cut back by burning biodiesel

We use some nasty stuff. Waste vegetable oil is considered hazardous waste. When we get done we take the hazard out of it and use it for fuel. When our "brew" is finished we have nothing really hazardous left. Basically soap and bio-diesel.

>4) No matter how bad you want it to stop, diesel will always destroy its engine faster than one running on gasoline

Semi-Trucks work their engines a lot harder then the rest of us ever do. The owner operator I used to work for used to retire his trucks after they hit 3 million miles. Now why don't they use gas if everything you say is true?

>5) The increased volume of oil needed in the crankcase poses another environmental hazard.

Very small. Ever hear of recycling?

>6) The diesel engine is noisy as hell. And I thought this being the 21st century we could have quiet sources of energy.

And I like it that way. That's how I know it is well and strong. If it suddenly gets quiet on you then something messed up the timing. Of course that is on older rigs and I have no muffler on mine as well. Some newer rigs are pretty quiet compared to older ones.

>Now, is there anyone here who would like to list advantages of the diesel? The first one would be what, that no spark is needed? Well, OK good, but a high-pressure pump is needed, plus a turbo to get the same power out of it as a gasoline engine with no turbo. Think about it...

So what have you got against turbos? They are great and they increase the efficiency of the engine. It has got to be one of the better inventions related to the cumbustion engine.

P.S. I am not offended whatsoever because it is obvious you have no idea what this e-group is about or what you are talking about."

Skaar had this to say:
"Diesel trains are diesel electric, the newer crop of cars being shoved out of the plants work on the same principle, use enough fuel to charge some batteries, then run off an electric motor. 'Course the cars also have transaxles to use both occasionally. So running a diesel-electric car, house, etc, has definite advantages.

>1) Diesel in any form is a high source of pollution.

Biodiesel seems to cut back on pollution by making it almost environmentally sound, with engine conversion straight cooker oil can be used.

>2) Burning diesel is more inefficient than burning gasoline because: a) the higher compression ratio robs power b) more (a lot more) of the fuel's energy is wasted as heat, thus less energy is left to push piston.

So use the waste heat for something, and are you sure?

>3) Biodiesel production is about as bad as burning petrodiesel--fumes from the brew would replace the pollution cut back by burning biodiesel

Back to 1.

>4) No matter how bad you want it to stop, diesel will always destroy its engine faster than one running on gasoline

I doubt it, have you got some stats? We'd all like to know if we are wasting our time.

>5) The increased volume of oil needed in the crankcase poses another environmental hazard.

Only in a crash, but what are the crash statistics? Trucks only get attention when they crash, they don't crash all that much really. And the hefty block would give better crumple protection.

>6) The diesel engine is noisy as hell. And I thought this being the 21st century we could have quiet sources of energy.

OK, transports are very noisy, but the newer VW diesels are quiet because of some good design and lots of sound insulation, still means earplugs needed to stick yer head under the hood. Does most of the noise come from the turbo or the exhaust, switch to supercharger, add some harmonically tuned pipes.

I'm guessing you ragged on the guys cause you wanted to get 'em yakkin, please be less inflammatory, it gives me gas."

And asked:
"Do you think I've done a good job refuting his disagreement, won't call it an argument, not intelligently enough written."

Bryan answered:
"I did a better job, I think. But I really liked yours too and yours was funny. Keep it up."

Steve relented:
"OK, you persuaded me.

Number 1. Diesel is less polluting than gasoline with MTBE, but is still a major source of pollution. Biodiesel eliminates all but the NOx.

Number 2 is laughable, it's the high compression that produces the greatest power. And diesels are more efficient because they run hotter.

Number 3 is ludicrous, especially with ethanol base instead of methanol. The fumes aren't polluting, just dangerous in an enclosed space.

Number 4 is nonsensical, since diesels get close to a million miles at times, where gas engines are often worn out before 200,000.

Number 5 is mitigated if using bio-based oils.

Number 6 isn't as true as it used to be, many diesels are fairly quiet, and could be quieter with sound deadening materials. I had a gas truck that knocked more than my diesel rabbit.

The advantages of a diesel engine? More torque, better fuel efficiency, longer life, less electronics (or none) needed, can run on a bio-based fuel with no modifications."

Bryan accepted defeat:
"OK you win! That was a good job, better then mine, but maybe that was because I forgot what MTBE stands for. You reminded me of course that my engine is quite a bit quieter when I run it on biodiesel."

Then Stephen wrote:
"Diesel is a very efficient engine and can run on many fuels, such as methanol, diesel oil, biodiesel, vegetable oil, methane, ethanol blends, and other blends. There was no petrol when Rudolf Diesel invented his engine. The first diesels ran on wood alcohol, as did the first autos. Oil was discovered over 20 years later.

A diesel kept in good condition and tuned properly is less polluting then a gasoline engine. The average gasoline auto puts out about 12,000 lbs of pollutants a year. About 7,500lbs of gasoline and 4,500lbs of air. The average heavy diesel truck puts out about 60,000lbs a year. But it would take 100 or more autos to transport the same amount of goods as one big diesel truck. Which is more efficient?

High compression does not "rob power", once the diesel is started it runs itself very nicely, and will pull whatever weight it was designed for. 80,000lbs for big doubles here in the US, maybe more down under. Diesel fuel burns, almost all of its energy is used to push the pistons down a long stroke burning all the way. Gasoline explodes, knocking the piston down a short stroke and exhausted, so most of the gasoline and its heat are wasted. It takes about 4 units of energy to produce one unit of gasoline. It takes about 1.8 units of energy to produce one unit of diesel. According to the Department of Energy, it takes one unit of energy to produce 3.75 units of biodiesel energy from existing waste oils and grease.

You say diesel will destroy an engine faster than a gasoline engine? Get your head out of the sand. Diesel burns. Gasoline explodes. I know engines, I know how and why they wear. I know how long an engine will last if properly maintained, and properly used. I have never seen a gasoline engine last longer than a diesel which was not abused.

As for oil in the crankcase? What's the problem? Crank oil has been refined and reused for over two centuries. Whale oil was used before petrol.

Old technology? Everything is "old", all we are doing is transforming what is already here. Trying to make the transitions more compatible to our way of life and enviromentally friendly. While the richer countries do slowly change, 3/4 of the world will not. They cannot afford the necessary investment, trying to feed and educate their people is utilizing all their available resourses. A worldwide effort is needed. Affordable small family units are needed, ie: stills, digesters, solar, wind power, etc. Instead of putting things down, channel your energy into inventing a small affordable family unit, a better way, something practical for everyone.

Would you have 200 autos and mini vans replace one big double diesel truck? Do the math, 200 gasoline engines times 12,000lbs of pollutants or one diesel with 60,000lbs of pollutants each driven the same distance."

John added this:
"Still one important point that hasn't been given enough weight in the current debate I feel.

Fossil fuel is carbon that has been locked up for eons and doesn't need to be re-released into a world of increasing carbon emmissions. Biofuel rehashes carbon that is in a free form in the environment at present and as such has very little effect on current atmospheric carbon ratios provided the efficiencies are as they appear to be.

I'm all for leaving the old carbon where it is and trusting the current swamp ecosystems are still doing the job they did to lock up the carbon reserves back when the atmosphere was even less breathable than today.

And then just maybe someone can come up with a turbo or burn that leaves a little more of the atmospheric nitrogen out of the current power stroke and NOx emmissions will also fall."

And Skaar commented:
"Of course there's carcinogens in diesel fumes, but there's less than in gasoline exhaust, partly because of the combustion method. Almost everything burned produces carcinogens, wood, propane, fossil oils, there are few that don't. Since in this group we are using or are going to use fuels that don't have these problems, who cares if diesel is outlawed? The people who can make biofuels will be the new gurus in this barren wasteland, like those people in the Road Warrior that had their own refinery, but much more willing to share."

Nothing further was heard from Superboost.

Biofuels
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Biodiesel
Make your own biodiesel
Mike Pelly's recipe
Two-stage biodiesel process
FOOLPROOF biodiesel process
Biodiesel processors
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Nitrogen Oxide emissions
Glycerine
Biodiesel resources on the Web
Do diesels have a future?
Vegetable oil yields and characteristics
Washing
Biodiesel and your vehicle
Food or fuel?
Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel

Ethanol
Ethanol resources on the Web
Is ethanol energy-efficient?

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